tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post1262218168320708064..comments2023-06-14T10:38:45.174-05:00Comments on A Nerd's Country Journal: An Open Letter to Christians, Wondering Why I'm So ScaryJeff Heberthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13732306951663286466noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-30777340491801484982007-05-06T07:36:00.000-05:002007-05-06T07:36:00.000-05:00Geopoet,I had an entire long list of contrary crit...Geopoet,<BR/><BR/><I>I had an entire long list of contrary critiques and studies (hundreds) by neutral statisticians and social scientists that disprove what atheists are trying to infer from it, but I'm not going to post them because I know nothing would convince you. </I><BR/><BR/>Please do post. I have often heard the claim from theists that atheism somehow causes social ills, but I have yet to see anything supporting that.<BR/><BR/><I>So, noone should disagree with a philosophy when they believe it might negatively affect others? </I><BR/><BR/>Of course they should. But you have still not demonstrated why and how atheism negatively affects society.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-53810172481898144382007-05-01T14:56:00.000-05:002007-05-01T14:56:00.000-05:00I just got here from the carnival; great post, and...I just got here from the carnival; great post, and I'll be going through the archives for awhile.<BR/><BR/>You already addressed this, but I'll throw in too:<BR/><I>With no moral or ethical objective truth, there is nothing to prevent justifying any evil in society. </I><BR/><BR/>The basic truth that most humans agree with is to treat others as they would like to be treated. That didn't originate with Christianity, and Christians certainly don't have a lock on it. What is more frightening to me is that for the religious, there is no evil that cannot be justified by "God commanded it". The murder of thousands of newborns, stoning of disobedient children, the list of evil in the Bible goes on and on, but it's all ok because it was for God's side. That, in the long run, is much more detrimental to society.chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07716628521872882440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-46905489205227786412007-04-30T09:33:00.000-05:002007-04-30T09:33:00.000-05:00Wow, Jeff, you are certainly drawing the high-powe...Wow, Jeff, you are certainly drawing the high-powered salesmen, aren't you? lol...<BR/><BR/>I had an interesting experience. As a naive college sophomore, I made friends with a group of people who claimed to have psychic abilities. I did not claim to have such gifts. They claimed I did, but I didn't feel or see what they claimed I should feel or see. After months of questions and examining the evidence, I realized none of them were really psychic at all. They were making it up, following a script, in an effort to impress each other with abilities they did not have. I didn't value conformity as much as I did reality, and so it didn't occur to me to "fake it" just to fit in. When I confronted one friend, then another, with the evidence of what I had found out... assuring them that I understood the group dynamic and didn't think less of them as friends for it... they had a peculiar reaction. They didn't show evidence to prove my conclusion wrong. They didn't act disappointed or hurt. They didn't even really get angry at me for pointing out their masquerade. They ganged up on me and threw me out of the group because I <B>denied</B> the <B>facts</B> that I had been shown, as though I was not a doubter, not even a heretic, but someone whose mission was to <B>destroy</B> their precious "gifts."<BR/><BR/>This experience came in handy many years later when I left Christianity. I realized that it was not my fault that I did not have a "relationship" with God. Neither did anyone else. Faith is what you have when you don't have evidence. If they had had a <B>real</B> relationship with God worthy of the name (as opposed to a desperate sort of stalking something you're not even supposed to understand), the need to have "faith" would have become obsolete.<BR/><BR/>What scares Christians is that you're on to the scam, Jeff. They are all suffering badly from the feeling that they aren't good enough to get God's attention. They think everyone else is doing it right but them. They don't want to be the failure in a group of successes. They simply don't realize that everyone else's success is as much a put-on as theirs is.Speedwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03183564986255249281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-90976488433907710152007-04-22T00:29:00.000-05:002007-04-22T00:29:00.000-05:00Hi Jeff,I responded to you here.Hi Jeff,<BR/><BR/>I responded to you <A HREF="http://wondersforoyarsa.blogspot.com/2007/03/in-defense-of-genocide-numbers-31.html" REL="nofollow">here.</A>Wonders for Oyarsahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17986630130864617816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-27515279819795914522007-04-18T23:02:00.000-05:002007-04-18T23:02:00.000-05:00Jeff. This is another case of being uncritical of...Jeff. <BR/><BR/>This is another case of being uncritical of a study, grabbed when it fits an agenda and it is hardly objective. Welcome to the world of pseudo science. As you stated, even the most neutral scientists state that this study's huge weakness is its lack of causality and its conclusions. I had an entire long list of contrary critiques and studies (hundreds) by neutral statisticians and social scientists that disprove what atheists are trying to infer from it, but I'm not going to post them because I know nothing would convince you. <BR/><BR/>Let me address your sense that I'm somehow being intolerant or bigoted. While I appreciate your feelings which are real, the idea that my concern about atheism is bigoted is waaay off the mark and I refuse to accept that false charge. Give me a break. My concerns with certain philosophies or ideas as being not good for society has absolutely nothing to do with prejudice or bias. We disagree on the overall societal good of certain belief systems... that's it. What you are implying is that equal belief in all views is an absolute value that must reign over objective truth or good, which is ludicrous. So, noone should disagree with a philosophy when they believe it might negatively affect others? For example, I also disagree with communism too, am I bigoted or a communaphobe? I disagree with Al Queda, so I'm an intolerant Alquidephobic? The fear of being called a racist or bigot should not stop dialogue when it's unfounded. Turn it around; many of your atheist sites literally hate Christianity but you don't seem to call them bigoted. Sorry, won't go there, don't deserve it, don't fit it and absolutely refute your reference to Imus. Reasonable people can disagree and it does not diminish respect or love. Stick to the topic. <BR/><BR/>Love,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-72998476369696949902007-04-17T17:39:00.000-05:002007-04-17T17:39:00.000-05:00On a bigger sphere, it is probably true (at least ...<I>On a bigger sphere, it is probably true (at least to me) that there is general fear that atheism, more specifically anti-religious hard-core atheism, is a danger to society overall. This, you must admit, is a valid concern.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually (and I suspect this is no surprise to you) <A HREF="http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/11/framing_the_evolution_debate_s.php#more" REL="nofollow">I do not at all accept that as a valid concern</A>. In fact, I think it's one of the bedrock untruths theists have used to demonize atheists for a long time. The only way this is a valid concern is if, in fact, atheists were demonstrably more dangerous to society than theists. But <A HREF="http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html" REL="nofollow">the objective evidence clearly indicates this is not true</A>:<BR/><BR/><I>(From the link just above)<BR/>In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies<BR/></I><BR/>That's almost certainly correlation and not causation, but it's objectively unfounded to make the claim that secular societies (there are no "atheist societies") are more lawless or wicked than theistic ones. <BR/><BR/><I>This is no over-reaction; history has all too many proofs of the atrocities of atheistic nations (and before you go there, the facts are irrefutably on the side of theistic nations).</I><BR/><BR/>Another completely unsupported and factually untrue assertion. I assume you're using the standard theist's list of the Soviet Union, Cambodia and Nazi Germany as your touchstones for this. I don't know that you can make a persuasive case that any of those were actually "Atheist nations" in the sense that atheism was their organizing principle. They were totalitarian states, whose brutal leaders crushed religion along with any other possible belief system that might compete with the notion that they held absolute power. They were not motivated by or founded on atheism as a principle.<BR/><BR/>Even if you were to count those three as somehow "atheistic nations" (which is certainly ludicrous with regards to Nazi Germany), however, that's three out of the entire history of humanity on earth. It's only in the last two hundred years or so that being an atheist wouldn't get you immediately put to death in most countries. Prior to that, theistic nations were all you had. Theistic nations therefore are clearly among both the best and the very worst in history, because before then theistic nations were all that existed. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, the religious have bought into this "Atheism=evil" meme wholeheartedly. It's not true, of course, nor is the reverse (that <I>religion</I> is fundamentally evil). <BR/><BR/>The fact is that people are people, and the bad ones are going to use any tool at their disposal to get their way. Sometimes that means using religion to destroy thousands of suspected witches, or to wage wars spanning hundreds of years pitting Catholics against Protestants, or to put to death all people of the Jewish faith, or to substitute a philosophy like communism as the law of the land, or what have you. Religion (and I include atheism, the lack of religion) is a tool, neither good nor evil in itself but only made so by the use to which it is put.<BR/><BR/><I>Third, you must also admit that this is only where you are right now, at this moment. </I><BR/><BR/>Well, yes, that's true. Just as it is true that your faith is where you are right now, at this moment. And yet I suspect you would be outraged if I were to suggest that eventually you will slowly arrive at a point where you come to understand that Catholicism is wrong and embrace some other philosophy. <BR/><BR/><I>Again, thanks for the honesty. Please take the above in that same spirit. </I><BR/><BR/>I do, and yet I wonder if you can see what it is you are saying above. You essentially state that my philosophy of life is guaranteed to inevitably lead to a) the destruction of the world into an evil nation and b) will eventually be shown to me to be false. <BR/><BR/>Can you see how offensive that appears? Imagine how you feel when someone makes the case that religion is the root of all evil and that ultimately it will grind us all into the dust of repression and slavery, and that eventually we will all be led to the promised land of rationality, free from the oppressions of this mythical creation.<BR/><BR/>It pisses you off, I know it does because you've posted here before about your reactions to people like Sam Harris, who make exactly that argument. <BR/><BR/>And yet that's exactly what you're saying to me. Forgive the analogy to current events, but you sound like Don Imus, absolutely incredulous that someone would have the audacity to point out that he's a racist just because he calls people niggers and ho's. He's completely unaware of his own feelings of racism, just as you (I would argue) are completely unaware of your own bigotry towards atheists and atheism.<BR/><BR/>This is the very kind of thing this post is about. You know how you feel when a Baptist tsk-tsks when you tell them you're Catholic and they walk way with "Poor soul, doomed to burn in Hell forever". You know they're ignorant, that their pity and hatred are misplaced. I am telling you now, honestly, directly, that you are doing the same thing to me and to every other atheist in the world. Bigotry has a deep hold in your heart, just as surely as any Klansman beneath his hood has towards Blacks and Jews. The kinds of arguments you use are the same as I've read again and again, directed at Jews and fags and Blacks and Muslims and foreigners.<BR/><BR/>I know you're a good person and you mean well, but honestly, listen to what you're saying and put yourself in the other guy's shoes for a minute.Jeff Heberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13732306951663286466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-11412837583981290012007-04-17T16:09:00.000-05:002007-04-17T16:09:00.000-05:00Jeff:I want to thank you again for your courage to...Jeff:<BR/><BR/>I want to thank you again for your courage to be open and honest, laying yourself out on the line. Admirable traits; in fact, us Christians see the source of these traits (God) in you and give thanks for it. <BR/><BR/>Overall, you are exactly right that we must love and accept everyone, wherever they may be in life and belief. We didn't do anything to deserve the cross; it was done for all as a free gift. Christians tend to forget Jesus' example, so your comments are appreciated. <BR/><BR/>If I may, I'd like to delve a little deeper into the crux of your post and offer a couple thoughts on what you are saying. <BR/><BR/>First, it may not be fear that you're getting from theists with respect to where you are personally. I can't speak for the commentor, but I would guess it's more like a great deal of discomfort (or even anger) that comes from rebuffing someone (God) that we believe is all too real and all too good to be dismissed. We give praise to our God, not because he needs it, but because He is everything to us. <BR/><BR/>For example, the wisdom books of the bible emphasize that "the beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord" which could mean that awe and reverance of the divine open the mind to the greater things in life. Your lack of "fear of the Lord" can thus come across as dismissive and closed, even when you are telling people your are trying to be open. Casual dismissal is one thing, continuously promoting disbelief probably rubs many the wrong way as being offensive (to Him, thus us). Perception, certainly. <BR/><BR/>On a bigger sphere, it is probably true (at least to me) that there is general fear that atheism, more specifically anti-religious hard-core atheism, is a danger to society overall. This, you must admit, is a valid concern. With no moral or ethical objective truth, there is nothing to prevent justifying any evil in society. I spoke about these false modern philosophies in an earlier email. This is no over-reaction; history has all too many proofs of the atrocities of atheistic nations (and before you go there, the facts are irrefutably on the side of theistic nations). <BR/><BR/>Secondly, deep down everybody wants the best for their loved ones. We believe in eternal life for those who love and serve God and his people. Not that we can judge anybody including you, but frankly it is only natural that we would seek comfort to know your life will be with Him and us in heaven. This is not a cooked up comfort to make us feel good; we believe this guy Jesus was pretty reliable, based on his deeds and words. Simply put, people love you and want the best. <BR/><BR/>Third, you must also admit that this is only where you are right now, at this moment. Love has brought you to places you never guessed and it, by its nature, will lead you to the ultimate source (so we have come to experience). The book on Jeff is not closed yet. An open honest heart that never tires will meet the Lamb that was slain (see Revelation). Whether things would be if your relationship with Dad were different, if you had kids, etc. is a moot point because you are who you are right now. However, as one delves deeper into the selflessness of love, things become even clearer, new truths open, and other realities and possibilies become evident. Your experience to date shows that. I can say that being married and then being a Dad were mileposts for my spiritual growth, but I'm barely seeing the whole of it. It can be very comforting to stick a flag in the ground and say we've arrived (I've done that before), but admitting life (God) is not finished with you yet would alleviate a lot of tension and is probably closer to where you're at. <BR/><BR/>What is intersting about your comments on being different is that you've described the appeal of Christ. He was radical, an outcast, ridiculed and laughed at. The ultimate anti-hero and rebel, defying classification and labels. A part of us thus identifies with Him. In reading your post, you obviously also identify with him as well.<BR/><BR/>Again, thanks for the honesty. Please take the above in that same spirit. <BR/><BR/>Love,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com