tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post4577634795283081466..comments2023-06-14T10:38:45.174-05:00Comments on A Nerd's Country Journal: Challenging PreconceptionsJeff Heberthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13732306951663286466noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-50517713620287158512007-04-25T18:26:00.000-05:002007-04-25T18:26:00.000-05:00Hey now, out here in the country we like to keep i...Hey now, out here in the country we like to keep it civilized. I don't know if that's due to everyone having guns, or that everyone is going to end up depending on everyone else at some point, but I kind of like it that way. <BR/><BR/>Let's keep it polite.Jeff Heberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13732306951663286466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-51960429150933582012007-04-25T16:05:00.000-05:002007-04-25T16:05:00.000-05:00kimmitt: most primate protocols do not allow the t...kimmitt: most primate protocols do not allow the test subjects to be starved, in my experience. an IACUC board would typically not allow food or water restriction unless one was focusing research on the effects of food or water restriction, or some other experiment that absolutely required it. hence, the food rewards in this case were extremely likely (i havent read the actual paper, though) to be in addition to their regular monkey chow. also, your attempt at a witty rejoinder was not particularly witty. it was, however, profoundly ignorant and anthropocentric.<BR/><BR/>now stfu.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-47621120465711328342007-04-25T15:40:00.000-05:002007-04-25T15:40:00.000-05:00If you predicated whether or not they could eat on...If you predicated whether or not they could eat on how well a person memorized the numbers, I guarantee you they'd put a chimp to shame.PunditusMaximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09249723289837838687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-30539894778667985372007-04-25T14:30:00.000-05:002007-04-25T14:30:00.000-05:00I think if you'd read my blog before, you'd unders...I think if you'd read my blog before, you'd understand that I'm not exactly humano-centric :-) I just thought that the one thing humans could claim a clear advantage in was on cognitive tasks.<BR/><BR/>Frankly, as an avid comic book fan I'm all for a "Gorilla Grod"-style scenario where a secret enclave of advanced apes hoard incredibly advanced technology. I think that'd be kind of cool.Jeff Heberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13732306951663286466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-59327462782356695562007-04-25T13:31:00.000-05:002007-04-25T13:31:00.000-05:00i am the first anonymous commenter. of course what...i am the first anonymous commenter. of course what i said was factually untrue, it is what is referred to as either "sarcasm" or "snark".<BR/><BR/>i congratulate you on realizing that American Humans are not the be-all-end-all pinnacle of existence in the universe. we need more of that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-53995094201563332342007-04-25T11:38:00.000-05:002007-04-25T11:38:00.000-05:00Actually, there is another wrinkle to using a star...Actually, there is another wrinkle to using a starvation diet to prolong life. Mice can lose a lot, about half, of the life extension benefit if they smell food, even if they don't eat it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-43386118829670227372007-04-25T09:24:00.000-05:002007-04-25T09:24:00.000-05:00I don't quite understand how the external framing ...I don't quite understand how the external framing of CR and anorexia matters as much as the internal framing. <BR/><BR/>Admittedly I'm not an expert on either, but from what I understand 'CR' is a dedicatedly precise dietary pattern, carefully calculating the exact proportions of nutrients, vitamins, etc. that the body needs to survive, and not a calorie more. The purpose of it is to extend life.<BR/><BR/>Anorexia, by contrast, has no standard dietary regimen, and people afflicted with it are not doing so for the purpose of greater health/extended life - but mostly for visual/cultural beauty standards or inherent body self-loathing i.e. "I'm too big."<BR/><BR/>Eating a minimal, strict restricted diet for the goal of improving one's health is inherently different than being incapable of not eating more than two sticks of gum and a diet coke because your ass looks fat even when you weigh 70 pounds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-54766529317058203362007-04-24T21:12:00.000-05:002007-04-24T21:12:00.000-05:00I think it's entirely possible all three of you ar...I think it's entirely possible all three of you are right ... well, no, actually I don't think Anonymous is right, as we haven't been "breeding chimpanzees for immediate-memory task testing for dozens of generations." That's simply factually untrue.<BR/><BR/>HOWEVER, in spirit it's possible all three of you are right and this is more a matter of training than innate ability. <BR/><BR/>That is beside the point, however. The preconceived notion I had that this report disabused me of is that no animal, ever, anywhere, in any way, would be able to be superior to humans when it comes to mental tasks. The closest I thought any would get would be, for instance, the border collie who showed the kind of critical reasoning skills usually reserved to humans around the age of five.<BR/><BR/>All of the reports of animal mental acuity are like that -- tool use, reasoning skills, empathy, they all achieve a level that's just barely up to a human child. There's never been a suggestion that an animal could ever learn to do any mental task as well as an adult human could, and yet, these not only equaled our performance, they outdid us.<BR/><BR/>I'd always figured "Well they might be faster or stronger, but we win on the mental side!" And now that's simply not true. Granted it's one narrow slice of the mental world, and perhaps a human could learn to do it even better than these trained chimps. But for now, these animals are better at this particular mental challenge than fully functioning, adult humans. That's unprecedented. Whether it's because of training or not is irrelevant -- I didn't think it would ever -- COULD ever -- happen at all.<BR/><BR/>But it did. And that's kind of cool. I like it when I have the chance to unlearn something false that was so ingrained, I didn't even know I'd learned it at all.Jeff Heberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13732306951663286466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-52437807343091029052007-04-24T19:22:00.000-05:002007-04-24T19:22:00.000-05:00I had to do a literal transcription of a recorded ...I had to do a literal transcription of a recorded conversation, and it was a real struggle, even though I am a moderately fast touch typist.<BR/><BR/>I would remember the gist of what was send, but doing an accurate and exactly literal version, and not just a paraphrase was almost painfully difficult.<BR/><BR/>Other people, however, do develop this skill quite easily -- court reporters and the like. <BR/><BR/>Maybe the key here is the months of training.Bruce Wilderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09631065564839959376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-44943617322801728642007-04-24T17:34:00.000-05:002007-04-24T17:34:00.000-05:00i think adam h is right on target, particularly si...i think adam h is right on target, particularly since we have bred chimpanzees for immediate-memory task testing for dozens of generations, and have consequently. increased the selective pressure for those traits.<BR/><BR/>no, wait. what i meant to say is "that's stupid."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20794947.post-1012060417472384582007-04-24T12:01:00.000-05:002007-04-24T12:01:00.000-05:00i'm certainly no zoologist, but idk about the conc...i'm certainly no zoologist, but idk about the conclusions regarding the chimp thing. i think that if in life the only motivation that you really have is to make sure you get fed, you'll step things up to improve your chances of there being another meal. the chimp's motivation to get the number sequence would be much higher, since otherwise he won't get a treat. if john q public gets it all wrong, he can still stop and pick up some chocolate chip cookie dough on the way home. and who can blame him for doing some overeating? after all, i could easily be wrong, and he's just found out he was dumber than a chimp! <BR/><BR/>:)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com